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    • Profile Photo
      Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
      Living Echoes Podcast

      Alexander Lanshe posted an update in the group Group logo of Living Echoes PodcastLiving Echoes Podcast

      5 months ago

      The latest article on Living Echoes Newsletter.

      https://living-echoes.ghost.io/the-war-of-will-and-reason-and-its-relation-to-the-salvation-dogma/

      living-echoes.ghost.io

      The War of Will and Reason and its Relation to the Salvation Dogma

      Written by Alexander Lanshe on January 13th, Feast of the Baptism of Our Lord, Anno Domini 2025 In “Desire and Deception: Is the Church Necessary?” by Thomas Hutchinson, he lays out a crucial philosophical thought shift which has had incredible … Continue reading

      Sabrina Lanshe
      18 Comments
      • Profile photo of James Joseph Finn
        James Joseph Finn (edited)

        Judging by the first couple paragraphs, this is very well written. (I’ll be sure to finish it, and report back.)

        Fun fact: Thomas Hutchinson is a pen name of Charles Coulombe.

        2
        5 months ago
        • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
          Alexander Lanshe

          Ah, I did not know that was a pen name. Thank you for sharing that.

          1
          5 months ago
          • Profile photo of James Joseph Finn
            James Joseph Finn (edited)

            The core logic and doctrine you expound upon here is no doubt solid as a rock. However, I cannot help but have an innate aversion to a theory which alleges that St. Thomas and his school concocted aberrant formulations that later served as the theological predicates for the heresy of “invincible ignorance”.

            Given that Mr. Coulombe holds communion with the Novus Ordo sect, I believe I am within my rights to suspect that there may be an abstract theological distinction here that is beyond his state of grace to comprehend.

            In pursuit of this suspicion, I did some quick research on the matter; and after a cursory scan of the Summa for all mentions of the relationship between “intellect” and “will”, I was able to discern rather quickly that St. Thomas’ teachings on the subject are quite nuanced; and although certainly beyond my ability to fully comprehend, I cannot help but view any attempt to distill his teaching down into a 4 word tweet, “intellect informs the will”, as a gross misrepresentation of St. Thomas.

            To demonstrate the depth of nuance, take this citation:

            “Now in things doubtful and uncertain the reason does not pronounce judgment, without previous inquiry: wherefore the reason must of necessity institute an inquiry before deciding on the objects of choice; and this inquiry is called ‘counsel’.

            “When the acts of two powers are ordained to one another, in each of them there is something belonging to the other power: consequently each act can be denominated from either power. Now it is evident that the act of the reason giving direction as to the means, and the act of the will tending to these means according to the reason’s direction, are ordained to one another. Consequently there is to be found something of the reason, viz. order, in that act of the will, which is choice: and in counsel, which is an act of reason, something of the will—both as matter (since counsel is of what man wills to do)—and as motive (because it is from willing the end, that man is moved to take counsel in regard to the means). And therefore, just as the Philosopher says (Ethic. vi, 2) that choice ‘is intellect influenced by appetite,’ thus pointing out that both concur in the act of choosing; so Damascene says (De Fide Orth. ii, 22) that counsel is ‘appetite based on inquiry,’ so as to show that counsel belongs, in a way, both to the will, on whose behalf and by whose impulsion the inquiry is made, and to the reason that executes the inquiry.”

            —Prima Secundæ, Q. 14, A. 1.


            Here St. Thomas teaches both concepts simultaneously, namely that the will moves the intellect, and that the intellect moves the will; as both being “ordained to one another;” and that “the reason does not pronounce judgement without inquiry”, and this inquiry acts “on behalf of the will.”

            Or, for a more apparent contradiction to Mr. Coulombe’s precarious thesis, take this citation:

            “Nothing hinders one and the same thing from belonging, under different aspects, to different powers. Accordingly the vision of God, as vision, is an act of the intellect, but as a good and an end, is the object of the will. And as such is the fruition thereof: so that the intellect attains this end, as the executive power, but the will as the motive power, moving (the powers) towards the end and enjoying the end attained.”

            —Prima Secundæ, Q. 11, A. 1.


            That sounds an awful lot like “the will moving the intellect” to me.

            In closing, and in opposition to the trending vogue, I believe that our default disposition toward the Angelic Doctor should always be one of humble deference; and we should refrain from thinking or speaking otherwise without first conducting investigation to see if his accuser’s allegations are justified. His Summa was placed on the altar all throughout the deliberations of Trent; and countless popes, saints, and doctors, have done none other than speak of him in the most august terms.

            4 months ago
            • Profile photo of James Joseph Finn
              James Joseph Finn

              @GabriellaAnastasia This is exemplary. Well done, indeed.

              4 months ago
              • Profile photo of Sabrina Lanshe
                Sabrina Lanshe

                Hey guys, I think the point of the article was missed, the article was not a bashing of st Thomas, nor did alex say that st Thomas taught this idea. He simply was saying that the popularization of St. Thomas in general not only in catholicism but throughout the secular world, continued a popularization of Aristotle and this emphasis on, the intellect moves first then the will.
                This became unknowingly popular, and a foundational part of modern thinking. He mentioned st Thomas to show the history of this shift, that’s it. This shift happened unknowingly and not directly on St Thomas’s account but indirect, because St Thomas is highly revered by even secularists and st Thomas studied Aristotle. Aristotles writings had the seeds of this switch, namely the intellect informs the will. Again a subtle shift in the mindset. The article my husband wrote is not trying to say st Thomas directly taught this, but to show a very subtle shift that happened outside of St Thomas that created the foundation for certain heresies. The focus of the article is on these philosophies and how they related to salvation.

                The author of the book Alex referenced is of little importance in my opinion, 1. Because his book was not on the index, it couldn’t have been due to the time it was written, and again the church was the one to say what you can and cannot read through the index, we cannot now take it upon ourselves to act in the churches place and say people are in mortal sin because they read a book you think they shouldn’t have or that you think would’ve been on the index. 2. Because the truth of these philosophies being switched is true As the scriptures sited affirms and history. And 3. Isn’t it possible the author could’ve just erred in good faith back then on the state of the church? People still are erring today on it, are they all reprobates? Was I a reprobate when I was in the NO? to call him a reprobate is extremely harsh and not much charity is shown with that kind of rash condemnation. Sounds very diamond-y IMO. Especially when his book is treating on why baptism of desire is false, which we all agree with. Which goes against many very learned saints, like St. Thomas. Are we denigrating the saints when we reject their beliefs and teachings on BOD and BOB?
                I don’t know why you’d call Mr coulombe such harsh things, maybe I’m missing something about him?? I think if you are calling him a reprobate simply because he believed the Vatican 2 church was still the church, that is extremely rash and rude and void of proper Christian charity. It leaves no grace for these people who simply could’ve erred in good faith on a subject that is very confusing for many many people, even today. As far I know the book Alex read was pretty solid and thought provoking and affirms the dogmas. So to discredit it simply because the author was still in the Vatican 2 sect in this time of great confusion makes no sense to me, considering most of the content of the book is sound. Also to assert that Alex is relying on the author is also presumptuous, how would you know he’s relying on the author? In fact Alex is doing the exact thing you admitted is necessary to do. Which is to seek out the truth, just because my husband happened to agree with the logic the author put out does not mean he’s relying on him. You’re putting something on my husband that is not there.

                We are called to use discernment. Testing everything we see hear or read against the church’s truth and teaching.

                In order to evangelize we have to have basic knowledge of opposing sides and their philosophies and beliefs, which might involve reading their works from time to time. In order to try to convert Muslims people had to read the koran to dismantle it, is that mortal sin? Obviously not. In order to know the Novus Ordo is false we have to read their documents. Is that mortal sin? We weren’t given explicit permission!
                No, because what is the spirit behind reading the book or the work? To figure out the truth? or to just be entertained and silently have false ideas creep into our minds? Again it’s the heart of the law not the letter, and we all have to use our discernment guided by the Holy Ghost (which is primarily and chiefly strengthened through the reception of the sacraments.)

                Again the point of the article was the thought shift and how it fuels this thinking that “well they didn’t know! So they are excused.” The article above reaffirms, that all those of good will, will be lead to the truth, and cited relevant history along with it. I hope this helps.
                When my husband has time he will respond. Please allow him proper Christian charity in any delays, he’s very busy.

                1
                4 months ago
                • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
                  Alexander Lanshe

                  @GabriellaAnastasia I appreciate your feedback.

                  My intention was not to convey that St. Thomas directly taught this error of the intellect informing the will, only that his popularization of Aristotle, of whose writings the seeds of this error can be found in his over emphasis on reason, led to the development of this error in thinking we see today viz. That an invincibly ignorant pagan is excused from needing faith and baptism because his intellect lacked sufficient data to come to the truth. That is the idea the article attempts to show is false.

                  I must also say, that St. Thomas is not above scrutiny however, regardless of all the citations you provided. For if the quotes you bring of Popes endorsing him proved that, then we cannot say he erred on the Immaculate Conception or on Baptism of Desire. He explicitly taught BOD in the Summa, and many say, mustering the Papal praises assembled here by Gabriella, that his means BOD cannot be false.

                  Yet we all know and maintain it is false. Many subsequent Theologians have documented errors St. Thomas made, and we cannot be afraid to admit them. St. Augustine made errors as well, as none of these saints were protected by the Holy Ghost from making errors. We know they are not heretics and that they led holy lives and are models of virtue. This does not prove that the Devil did not use the popularization of Aristotle as a means to further his notion men can be saved without faith and baptism.

                  I am curious why no comment was made about the Scriptures I cited, especially the Parable of the Sower.

                  It shows perfectly that God acts first, and the will (good ground) is the foundation for receiving the Gospel. For other ground also had enough intellect to accept the faith for a time (the stoney ground and the thorny ground). Goodwill is the basis for receiving the Gospel.

                  “On earth peace to men of goodwill” Luke 2:14.

                  Likewise the Scriptures tell us to have faith like a child, who often believe and have good will despite not having any profound intellect. The good will comes first. The Pharisees bad will is what damned them. Had they been of goodwill, they would have used their intellects to aid themselves in their salvation.

                  4 months ago
                  • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
                    Alexander Lanshe

                    @GabriellaAnastasia I also never advocated for a separation of the will and intellect, nor asserted that one only needs goodwill and zero intellect to accept the Gospel. Those were not stated and if I gave that impression, then I apologize for my lack of perspicuity.

                    The will and the intellect move and work together. However, if one places too high an emphasis on the intellect, on man’s reason, then the consequences are manifest. Men now think that unless their intellects are convinced of something, they will not believe it. And that if the intellect never has a chance to review all the information of Christianity, then such a one cannot go to hell if they die in that state, because that would be unjust of God to do. Both of those ideas are false, as we all agree. Aristotlianism was used to further his idea, due to thr over emphasis on the intellect, and not enough focus on God moving first and man needing a good heart to accept the Gospel.

                    4 months ago
                    • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
                      Alexander Lanshe

                      @GabriellaAnastasia I did not say that St. Thomas’ philosophy led to invincible ignorance. With respect, perhaps you need to reread my article.

                      The fact remains that you reject multiple teachings of St. Thomas, we all must. I don’t believe you hold to delay Ensoulment either, correct me if I’m wrong, which is another idea he believed in.

                      We cannot have so much respect for any man, even a saint, that we refuse to accept that he erred when he did err.

                      And the main point of the article is that Aristotle’s over emphasis on reason was used to begin to alter the minds of men to accept invincible ignorance. Not that St. Thomas taught this or promoted this aspect of Aristotle. Obviously St. Thomas submitted his will to the Church, including admitting that Doctors can err and that we must follow the Church and not them when it comes down to it.

                      Do you believe it is sinful for a Catholic to point out that saints and doctors can and did err? Do you claim it is impossible that the over familiarity with Aristotle that ensured in the centuries following St. Thomas’ canonization led to an increased over emphasis on the intellect and reason of man?

                      1
                      4 months ago
                      • Profile photo of Sabrina Lanshe
                        Sabrina Lanshe

                        @GabriellaAnastasia well you’re making personal attacks now

                        4 months ago
                        • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
                          Alexander Lanshe

                          @GabriellaAnastasia I said maybe you needed to. Perhaps you should, because your analysis seems to indicate that you believe I accused St. Thomas of error when I never did. You also accused me of intellectual dishonesty. Charity would require you to issue a retraction of those things, but I have already forgiven you and do not require it of you.

                          Please take my advice and hold back your uncharitable accusations which people can now see is a flaw you seem to struggle with. The truth requires you to hold back any uncharitable accusations, and if you fail to see how what you did was uncharitable, then my advice is to pray for wisdom so you may see.

                          1
                          4 months ago
                          • Profile photo of Sabrina Lanshe
                            Sabrina Lanshe

                            @GabriellaAnastasia Gabriella the same things can be said about you, you’re on my husband because you think he’s disparaging st Thomas, (when he’s not) yet you do the exact thing your upset at my husband about, in regards to the code of cannon law to support your beliefs. It’s all projection and you can’t even see it you seem blind on your own failings and hypocrisies and intent on everyone else’s perceived failings. You don’t see us pointing out every single one of your faults that you make apparent to us all. Especially in the way you do it. It’s not fruitful, what you’re doing here is not fruitful. There’s a way to go about discussing these things and the way you’re going about this is not the proper way. It’s judgmental and divisive. You are placing bad will on people when there is none, that is rash and divisive. You are not handling this in a God honoring or productive manor, but it seems you are above reproach and have an excuse for every uncharitable act you do, so I won’t even bother. I hope one day you’ll learn an appropriate way of having a fruitful discussion. Because this is far far from it.

                            4 months ago
                            • Profile photo of James Joseph Finn
                              James Joseph Finn

                              My dear brother and sisters in Christ,

                              I must confess, I feel partly to blame for starting this whole thing, and it is all making me quite sad to witness.

                              This serves only as further evidence of our era of utter and total desolation; which requires supernatural fortitude and grace just to hold the line.

                              Let us call to mind that we have been promised that anything we ask in prayer, with a pure heart, it shall be given us. Let us together beg the intercession of St. Benedict Joseph Labre, for the intention of our oneness and unity in Faith.

                              With sadness and humility, I am obligated to make the following observations:

                              This article does indeed implicate St. Thomas in the “smuggling in” of Aristotle; as if Plato is somehow a superior pagan; and St. Augustine is somehow superior for choosing Plato as his preferred pagan.

                              This article does indeed oversimplify (by my estimation) the relationship between will and intellect that is taught by St. Thomas / Aristotle.

                              This article does indeed carry on about the fallibility of St. Thomas; whereas if this were truly only about his “accidental smuggling in” of Aristotle, then there would be no need for the reminders of his fallibility.

                              This article does indeed rely upon the theories of a then and current member of the Novus Ordo sect, whose state of grace is rightly suspect to be in the proper disposition to pass judgement on the prudence of St. Thomas and his school for embracing Aristotle.

                              This article does indeed imply that St. Thomas was blind to an embedded contradiction in Aristotle with the doctrine of EENS.

                              I am no student of philosophy, but even I know that St. Thomas is renowned for resolving the entirety of Aristotle with Christian Doctrine. If the Angelic Doctor did not see a contradiction, I doubt Mr. “Heretic Hutchinson” Coulombe has him beat.

                              In closing, I will again reiterate, that we should refrain from participating in the current vogue of routinely and casually disparaging the Angelic Doctor.

                              4 months ago
                              • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
                                Alexander Lanshe

                                @james you are free to criticize the article, that’s not a problem.

                                I can always make an addendum to the article making it more clear that I am not trying to disparage St. Thomas, nor claim he is to blame for invincible ignorance. Because that isn’t what I want to do, and that’s not what was done.

                                I do think it is manifest however that the main thesis is true – the popularizing of Aristotle and his subsequent study among the learned slowly led to a shift in thinking which places too much emphasis on the intellect of man, and not enough on having the good ground of a good will to accept the truth when it presents itself. Who here can deny this? Do we not see exactly this constantly today to excuse pagans and Jews from not accepting the Gospel and for being blameless for dying in ignorance?

                                I do maintain that we must not be afraid to admit when saints erred; again, St. Thomas erred on BOD, the Immaculate Conception, and Delayed Ensoulment as far as we know (as all the theologians by the 19th and 20th century abandoned this belief of his as well). As everyone here is well aware, to tell the truth when required is not disparaging, it is charitable. It is not charitable to St. Thomas to act like he did not make errors. This over emphasis on “protecting” him is what leads many to say he actually did not make these errors in an effort to defend BOD and its implications on salvation. Some even say he did not err on the Immaculate Conception because they just cannot admit he made any mistakes at all, lest some “Feeneyite” point his out as to why he wasn’t necessarily right on BOD.

                                I disagree that I am “casually” disparaging him, because that isn’t what I’m doing and if the article made it seem that way, I will amend it with stronger language to over emphasize I am not doing so.

                                Remember, Catholics can disagree on many issues; we don’t need to be upset.

                                Let’s not be upset, let’s actually use reason illumined by faith to come to the truth.

                                1
                                4 months ago
                                • Profile photo of James Joseph Finn
                                  James Joseph Finn

                                  @LivingEchoes Granted, you make the case quite well that an overemphasis on intellect can lead to a denial of EENS.

                                  What is lacking in your thesis, however, is how this modern Enlightenment overemphasis on intellect is in any way attributable to either a Thomistic or Aristotelian understanding of the relationship between Will and Intellect; and this is what is meant by “casually disparaging” St. Thomas. You have, in my humble assessment, thus far failed in making the connection between St. Thomas’ / Aristotle’s understanding of the relationship between Will and Intellect, and modern man’s (mis)understanding of the same.

                                  As to whether we should be afraid to admit that saints have erred, I consider that a red herring as pertains the subject at hand; for, in my view, it is clear that neither St. Thomas, nor Aristotle, have anything whatsoever to do with modern man’s overemphasis on intellect. It is, therefore, unjustifiable that his venerable name was even raised in this context.

                                  I can reasonably anticipate the rationale that it was not St. Thomas’ formulations per se which are to blame, but errors which developed from his formulations; to which I will preemptively reply that this sort of illogic opens the door to virtually unlimited baseless assertions being leveled against St. Thomas; for the very title of his magnum opus is “The Sum of all Theology”, and, in using this illogic, a work of such comprehensive scope would therefore become susceptible to being the source of every theological error known to man.

                                  Therefore, my position remains well defended: one is hard pressed, indeed, to justify even so much as uttering his name in the context of the development of the heresy of Invincible Ignorance.

                                  4 months ago
                              • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
                                Alexander Lanshe

                                @james Again, due to some of the inherent issues of Aristotle, the over emphasis on the intellect began to flourish after St. Thomas’ canonization. Because fallible men, not as saintly or faithful as St. Thomas, failed to protect their minds from this error. Again, I am not “blaming” St. Thomas for this – it is simply recounting the history behind why Aristotle became popular. That isn’t his fault or the Church’s fault. But fallible men used it to their own end in raising up man, and forgetting about God. Obviously errors can be found with Plato too, but the topic of the article wasn’t about Plato’s errors.

                                To act as if this is besmirching St. Thomas’ good name seems to be, I must say, almost an act of virtue signaling. It is not forbidden to study history and to make connections between ideas and outcomes. Especially when the purpose of that is to arrive at truth and defend the dogma of the Church on salvation, the actual goal of the article.

                                And yes, men can twist anything; look at what Protestants do with Scripture. That isn’t the fault of Scripture or the Summa that men twist it. But the fact remains that as the works of Aristotle gained prominence, men began to, like him, place too much emphasis on man’s intellect and forgot the simple truths of faith, such as God’s providence governing all things with mercy and justice.

                                You are more than free to disagree with the analysis I did, but you and Gabriella acting like this is somehow off limits because it bad mouths St. Thomas is sheer nonsense. That’s not what I did, that wasn’t the goal of the article. Its a comment on history on how we arrived at the present denial of salvation.

                                1
                                4 months ago
                                • Profile photo of James Joseph Finn
                                  James Joseph Finn (edited)

                                  @LivingEchoes I think I’ve advanced a rather solid objection; but instead of addressing it directly, the ad hominem of “virtue signaling” is advanced.

                                  I assure you, my motive is none other than heeding the warning of Pascendi that the Modernists categorically “wage unrelenting war, using the weapons of ridicule, against the Scholastic method of philosophy.”

                                  The logic of my objection is quite simple to follow: The Scholastic method is implicated in “popularizing” Aristotle, which led to a denial of EENS; but you have not demonstrated wherein either Scholasticism or Aristotelianism the relationship between will and intellect is as simple as “the intellect informs the will.” You have not demonstrated how modern man’s belief that “the intellect informs the will” is in any way linked to either Scholasticism or Aristotelianism.

                                  I fully comprehend that you are giving a historical narrative; and that your narrative begins with Scholasticism.

                                  4 months ago
                                  • Profile photo of Sabrina Lanshe
                                    Sabrina Lanshe

                                    @james I believe Saint Thomas taught BOD right? So That’s how. That’s where the seeds of Aristotle’s teaching came in. It has changed the logic and jumping off points which Alex very clearly laid out in his article. It’s very simple. It’s that subtle mins shift that happened, that allowed for in the minds of these theologians to play with the possibility of salvation outside the sacrament. Does that imply malice on st Thomas part? No not at all, is that degrading him ? Not one bit, because BOD is simply wrong. St. Thomas submitted himself to the church and all his writings, he would not want to be treated as if he was unable to make an error, He very well knew he could. We all agree St Thomas erred on BOD right? So I don’t know why there is all this opposition. That’s how Aristotles philosophy connects to st Thomas. There’s nothing else to it. If you guys believed in BOD I’d understand the objections, but you don’t so I’m genuinely confused.

                                    1
                                    4 months ago
                                • Profile photo of Alexander Lanshe
                                  Alexander Lanshe

                                  @james I am not trying to implicate Scholasticism either. I will amend the article to be more clear. I will also dig more into showing the proof of Aristotle having some errors or other historical evidence to show the change in some men’s thinking.

                                  I do value your feedback, and please accept my apologies for saying “virtue signaling”. That was rash and uncharitable. I do believe you wish to follow Pascendi.

                                  1
                                  4 months ago
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